don't say anything at all!"
~ Every mother on the planet
Rare have I written anything offensive and I hope never divisive, but sometimes I feel like I've failed in blogging because I've never received a negative comment. Spam, yes; negative (strongly dissenting opinion) or trollish (just plain mean), no. I'd like to believe it's because the readers who comment on PENSIEVE are decent people who subscribe to the axiom above.
But I might get a few if you continue reading because I have a little confession…
I don't agree with bringing children to adult gatherings
(especially where childcare is available);
if you need to, should they become distracting,
out of courtesy to others in attendance, you should
take them to a place they can be KIDS.
Gasp! The people pleaser living inside me is running for cover because I know I just stepped on a lot of toes. Even toes I'll face soon (I'm sure) in real life.
This is no attempt to create controversy; it's not meant to polarize. I know in advance plenty of people–people whom I respect–will strongly disagree with me. I'm not gunning for negative comments, but I hope gently to share the perspective of those who agree with me…and maybe to offer some helpful parenting advice.
Will you bear with me while I share my thoughts? I worked as nursery and Parents' Morning Out director for almost ten years at a large church, so I think at least some of what I suggest has merit (though my degree is in business, this was my post-baby, part-time position). Typically, my experience reflects church settings, but it applies beyond.
[1] When your child becomes noisy–and I don't blame the little one, that's what they're wired to do–I'm distracted from hearing the speaker.
Early in our parenting, we were introduced to the concept of "preciousness of others", a principal gleaned from scripture and transferable regardless of faith. In its most simple form, it's the practice of considering others and how your actions affect them, regarding them more highly than your own preferences. We have been diligent to instill this in our own children, and have tried to model this in our lives.
Sunday, sitting directly in front of me (on the front row) was a young mom with her two-year-old child. Throughout our lesson, her daughter squirmed, walked around, talked, "fought" her mother when the mom tried to do something with her, knocked over a cup of coffee–twice–and scribbled in her mom's Bible.
Our teacher was gracious and said, "She's fine…she's not bothering me…" but I could barely follow him! I wasn't the only one. We have a wonderful nursery the little girl would have enjoyed much more than an adult class, but the mom brought her to class instead.
I felt for this mother; I wondered if she was a single mom, overwhelmed, or not quite confident in parenting. She came in late and left early, so I never had the opportunity to meet her, to learn more about her.
[2] Sometimes children have MAJOR MELT-DOWN separation anxiety. I know this mama-pain experientially; my middle child had to be pried off my body when I dropped him off at the nursery. But…I firmly believed that I was helping him by teaching him to separate even though it was a month's long lesson. Some things to consider (again, both from my personal experience and from observation of others):
- Never sneak off when leaving a child in nursery/preschool! Never! Tell him you're leaving for a little while and that you'll return later. This teaches him to trust your word.
- Nine times out of ten, he'll settle down shortly after you leave; for some kids, this is a power play to manipulate. They're savvy little creatures.
- Sometimes, Mamas, you're feeding this; perhaps you're equating their love for you by the tears shed at drop off. Don't make that mistake, it has nothing to do with love. They might be mad…or even scared, but their crying when you leave doesn't mean they love you more than the child who happily skips into the room.
- For the record, I'm not talking about the first time you take your child somewhere! That's a totally different story! (Then, I think it's good to stay with your child a time or two, even for just a few minutes, to help her grow comfortable with environment, teachers/caregivers and classmates.)
[3] Some derivative of "My child [is running a fever/threw up/isn't feeling well] and the nursery has a 24-hour sickness policy." Oh, dear ones…someone needs to stay at home with that baby! If your child is sick, germs can be spread in adult classes, too, and if your little one needs to lie in your lap because he doesn't feel well? This might be a time you have to miss out.
Certainly there are times when it's necessary to bring your child to an adult event; but the courteous, other-minded thing to do if he/she starts crying, talking or can't sit still, is to remove her from the setting to allow everyone else a distraction-free class/lesson/wedding/whatever. I've been to more than one wedding where weeping and wailing accompanied the vows.
Once children reach an age of self control, it's important to train them to sit quietly and respectfully when attending grown-up events. Years ago, I about DIED when our church dropped "children's church" for four and five year olds. I wondered how our kids could sit still (or at least quietly) for over an hour in "big church" and seriously thought we'd have to take turns attending for a while. We clearly explained our expectations for them, packed some quiet activities (crayons, books), made sure we had snacks (hey, I'm not above bribery, I never said we were perfect parents…and sometimes you DO have to do whatever it takes…!) and they rose to the occasion! They didn't disturb those sitting around us and eventually learned the self discipline of sitting still.
It doesn't come naturally, it takes practice.
I just had a conversation with my daughter about writing this post, and she asked me why I would bother…wasn't it just inflammatory? Sincerely, that isn't my intent. I think it goes back to the parenting class we took when she was three, and "preciousness of others" always rings in my ears; to me, it demonstrated a lack of regard if I subjected those sitting around me to the perpetual noise and motion of my then-young children.
Please…nicely…share your thoughts in comments. I'd really like to hear your heart in this; if you're of the opposite opinion, please share your logic. Also, especially, if you have helpful tips, I'm sure parents who struggle with this would be most appreciative.
I agree with you completely on this one, Robin. My kids are now older (19 and 16), but I was always conscious of this very thing when they were small. In general we didn’t attend adult events with them, and in cases where they were in a place like a restaurant, they learned early what acceptable behavior was.
There are lots of parents who are very conscious of others around them — very considerate — and I try to compliment them on the way they’re raising their children to be polite and considerate to others. However, it seems that for every set of considerate parents there are multiple sets who feel that their comfort / child / whatever comes above those around them, and I would have to disagree with them.
As someone that loves kids but does not have any of my own, I applaud you. I think your reasoning is sound and compassionate and considerate.
I agree with you to a point (I believe nursing babies are ok to go with their mama and the mama shouldn’t feel like she has to hide at home), and I think the main thing here is that parent’s should step out of the gathering with the child when he/she gets distracting or loud.
The only thought I’d add is that when you see other parents with their kids “acting out” remember that they may be special needs kids. I can’t simply explain expectations to my kids and then they do as I ask (oh how i wish!).
In your example of no child care for he 4-5yr olds at church, I’d probably end up staying home and missing church, but many moms don’t want to miss and end up going, hoping that will be the day their child can hold it together.
Sometimes we need to venture out as special needs families to see if we’ve made progress or to see what the kids can handle, we are always hoping we’ve taking a few steps forward and now they can sit through a meal at a restaurant, etc. You may catch a family doing just that, instead of a family who is thoughtless about those around them.
I can’t believe you just wrote this post. I’ve been mulling a similar topic over in my head. I heard someone ask the question whether children should be allowed in first class on an airline, so I was thinking from a slightly different perspective.
Anyway! For the most part, I agree. I’m all for using nurseries, children’s programs, sitters, etc; however, I have a bit of a different experience. When my children were first born, we went to a small church that didn’t have space for a nursery. We had to teach our children to sit quietly on our laps in church from birth. It was HARD!!!!!!
It was the best thing that ever happened to me in my parenting. The pastor didn’t really tolerate noisy kids, so I had to teach my kids to be good and patient in church. I actually worked on their sitting abilities during the week. Making them sit on the couch or floor while I read to them for longer and longer periods of time. I wouldn’t let them run around or get up and down. I taught them to sit still. Seriously, after my kids learned this lesson, I could take them ANYWHERE for ANYTHING. They sat through an entire Air Force graduation when my daughter was 2 and my son 4. It just took a lot of work and training on my part.
Having said that, it does drive me nuts when people’s kids are totally bad in church and they do nothing. I mean, I understand why the child is misbehaving and I even understand that you may not know what to do. I just wish they’d walk out with the child. I usually try and offer to help them out or take the child to nursery, but I’m the pastor’s wife now, so I kind of feel a little responsible. I know my husband is distracted easily while preaching.
Sorry, this was long. I should have just said…I agree or disagree.
-FringeGirl
No need to run “skeerd” when posting something like this. It is perfectly normal and acceptable for you (and any of us) to expect adult meetings to be adult meetings. Parents that chronically bring children to these events are exposing a parenting philosophy that is slowly, but surely doing them and their children a disservice.
Boundaries – clear and firm – are things we all need to have in our lives. But some feel like they are too harsh and restricting and therefore put in place “suggestions” rather than drawing a line in the sand. Knowing and understanding boundaries is freeing – not restricting. For our children, it is beneficial for them to know where the good and safe places are. For us, it takes a bit of the “gray” out of parenting if you are clear and consistent with enforcing the boundaries.
So, for me – leave your kid where they are supposed to be and expect them to stay there. If they don’t, consequences (whatever gets the point across) should be the response. (hoping to deflect some of the heat from our author with that last bit)
Why is this controversial? In my experience, when my child is a distraction I’m not learning anything anyway. My Husband and I are very aware of how our kids might be affecting the experience of others. Taking kids to adult only events is not fun for the kids or the adults in charge of them. I will say that we probably let our baby (16 months old) go a little too long in Mass before taking her out right now, but we are working on it. We are trying to just extend her time a little bit each week (our church got rid of the nursery). I completely agree with you Robin. OF course I can appreciate how some parents might feel like they have no choice (remember our church got rid of the nursery), so I try not to judge the parents that do bring their kids to events where it would have been best to leave them at home.
As for a tip, abundant praise when they do well is what our kids respond to the most.
I agree, for the most part. I do think church is a great for training though. Being able to teach your child how to act in an “adult” situation (like sitting through a sermon which later translates to sitting through lecture classes, board meetings, speeches, etc) while in the presence of those who love us as members of the body of Christ is priceless. The “village” of my church family has extended lots of grace in the child rearing years!
I happily took advantage of nurseries and children’s worship (still do with my 4 yr old). It’s good for them and good for me!
Out of church situations…I’m with you. I know there will be extenuating circumstances from time to time but as a rule, my children stay home (with the other parent) or with a sitter when one of us needs to be somewhere where adults need to be able to converse and listen without the distraction of children.
I agree with you! And think that it extends to restaurants, movies, lots of other places. I’ve recently seen young children in movies that were so NOT kid movies, and they couldn’t sit still. Couldn’t blame them but what were the parents thinking?
There were a lot of things that I missed when my kids were little and we didn’t have a reliable babysitter. I was (kinda) raised in the ‘children should be seen and not heard’ era, and while I don’t agree 100% with that it certainly has merit in certain situations.
Oh boy! I hope you’ve got on your steel toed boots. I’m not going to be the one stomping on your toes though.
This subject is simply common sense. I do not go to church/weddings/restaurants etc. to be distracted by someone else’s children. If the parent believe’s their child will behave appropriately, fine. I don’t blame them for trying. When Junior starts acting up/out they should immediately be removed from the scene. No harm, no foul. Just take care of the situation now, not after three, stern, threatening warnings. Everyone else in the room has to endure each one of this warnings too.
Restaurants are a separate category. I have no respect for any parent that allows their child(ren) to run around the table or restaurant while the adults converse or eat. It is not only rude but extremely dangerous.
Like Lisa said, compliment the parents who do have control of their environment, especially when that set of parents who have lost control are within earshot of your praise.
Should I send you a hard hat?
I have so much to say on this topic … and am glad YOU wrote it … cuz you’re so much more eloquent than I.
1st – even the most well-behaved child should not be expected or dare I say ‘allowed’ in/at a function that is adult-only. There are reasons that childcare is provided and it should be respected.
2nd – I think that you are gracious to have included the fact that you wanted to delve into that mother’s story a bit more, had she stayed around long enough. I think too often we turn up our noses or scoff inwardly or even verbally gripe about rowdy kids, without taking the time or the effort to find out if that momma needs some help or assistance
3rd – I have before – and will continue to – sweetly offer a “you need to stop acting like a banshee” to other children in social settings where they are not acting correctly. Just a simple “I think you need to listen …” or “You need to sit down” said in a firm and ended with a PERIOD seems to work when coming from another adult.
I’ll hush for now, cuz this topic tends to get me rollin’ …
That’ll preach.
Hooray for you for expressing this so well. I completely agree. I will say, however, that in most churches that do not have a nursery I would expect to see children. Those that do not behave should be removed from church; my mama used to call that “going to prayer meeting.” After she straightened me up, we’d go back in without disrupting the service.
All that being said, if children are at an adult function where child care is available, I don’t think it’s rude for the event sponsor to “remind” the attendees that there is child care available. If I’m new to a church, I may choose not to use it, but at least I take my children outside if they misbehave.
I agree with you, but am curious about what you would do if you aren’t comfortable with the church nursery worker. She is very gruff with the children and is only supervising the children. I spent most if a service in there one Sunday because my daughter refused to get down to play. She was uncomfortable and clinging to me. The caregiver never spoke to either of us. I do volunteer in there from time to time when there are a lot of children and they need more help, so I know she wasn’t just having a bad day. I do leave the sanctuary when she starts to get loud or restless. 🙂
I agree with what you’re saying. It sounds like your approach is pretty similar to ours. I do wish our church had more events or services that were kid friendly – not geared to kids only, but really something where families could worship together. When I was a kid I went to childrens church on Sunday morning, but stayed in the service on Sunday night. The evening service was more relaxed (and one where kids were expected to be), but it was still where I learned how to behave (and how not to behave) in church. This is something that is missing in our church.
Rather than weigh in on the argument, I just want to say how impressed I am by the way you expressed your thoughts. Not only did you share your feelings eloquently, you managed to do so while inviting intelligent discussion. This is exactly the sort of discourse the church should be known for – conversation born of honesty and smothered in grace. One without the other leads to argument and dissension.
Well done, Robin. And to all the commenters: Well done to you also.
Thus ends my disruption. (I am taking myself to the quiet room now.)
I suppose my opinion falls somewhere in the middle. First let me say that I do not think it is acceptable for parents to ignore their children’s bad behavior in an adult setting. If the child is being disruptive and distracting, then the parent needs to remove them from the room.
That being said, I think it is sad that in our culture a church service is often considered an adult setting. I am not talking about an adult Sunday School class…I am referring to the main worship service. Certainly an adult class is a whole different setting, and having a child in that environment is not good for anyone. In that case, the child is missing the opportunity to have a Bible lesson on their level, and a young child in a small room of adults is very distracting.
When it comes to the worship service, I believe that it is good for children to be in the corporate worship service with their parents, at least from time to time. I understand that not all parents share that view, and I respect their opinion. However, I think that the body of Christ is missing something when we divide the generations and separate them. I do not believe this is biblical.
There are certainly times when I believe it is good for children to be in a class with their age group. However, I believe being in the corporate worship gathering is vital as well.
When our children are with us in church, we always sit at the back (preferably the very back row) and as near to the door as possible (in case we need to make a quick exit). We bring quiet activities such as coloring books, crayons, and books. I have two girls, ages 5 and 3, and they do quite well because we have raised them that way. They love the music in the service, and though the sermons are “over their heads” they always have questions later which prove that they are listening and learning. If they become disruptive at all, we take them out. (Certainly I recognize that some children of different temperaments may not be able to sit through a service at that age.)
I have visited churches where it was clear from the moment we walked in the door that our children were not welcome in the main service, even though they were VERY quiet. In those cases, we know that particular church is not the one for us.
However, I refuse to place my children in child care at a strange church. I do not feel that is responsible parenting. Church should be a safe place, but the truth is that there are many people out there who have no business being around children, but because of nursery worker shortages they are there. Until I know the standards that a particular church has for their children’s workers, I do not feel comfortable with placing my children in the class. If my children are sitting at the back and not being disruptive, I believe it should be okay for me to keep them with me. Again, if they are not behaving, I take them out.
Aside from the church setting, when considering other types of meetings or weddings, we would never take our children unless we were specifically invited to do so. Even then, we often do not, simply because it does change the dynamics of the event. In general, we just don’t go to restaurants that are not child friendly. We also tend to eat early to get the kids home for bed, so we are finished before the dinner rush anyway. Again, our girls are generally well behaved because it is expected of them. I am not saying they have never had a tantrum or started singing at the top of their lungs in a restaurant, but those have been rare exceptions (and we used them as major learning experiences for the child).
Thanks for opening up this topic for discussion. It is certainly a sensitive one, and I know that we all have our own views and thoughts on it. I hope my statements have not offended you or anyone else. Please know that I am not intending to be judgmental or argumentative in the least. If anything I have said came across that way, it was not my intent, and please forgive me! 🙂
I think these are really good thoughts. I can tell you when I had my wedding reception it was HUGE issue. Many people were offended we were not allowing children; we were told “How are they going to learn about how to behave if they do not experience it?” My parents held firm. We say, when You’re paying $20+ a head, YOU can make the rules.
Still, people were inconsiderate or our request; and what could we do when they RSVPd still with them the week before? UGH! I still remember those who did that.
My oldest is just 5, so I have no experience with bringing kids into adult situations for the most part. I’m not brave enough. And I want to hear/enjoy myself (like you said above.) And my oldest is a boy and TOTALLY CANNOT SIT STILL YET to save his life!!! It would be akin to torture to ask that of him. =)
Surely we all must use great common sense at the end of the day. Sadly, this trait can be lacking even in the best cases. Hoping this post gets people back to thinking.
~rachwinn
So sorry my comment was SO long…didn’t realize HOW long until I had already posted it!
Oh, I so agree. I was a preschool and elementary teacher and have had similar experiences.
The only thing I wanted to add about leaving your child in the nursery (or other care) besides not sneaking off (and really, just DON’T) is:
Don’t let your child talking you into staying for a long period of time. If it’s the first time, sure, but after that it’s just manipulation. The longer you stay, the worse it gets for your child!
This is your controversial post? Shoot, I was hoping it would be on spanking!!
As a former daycare/nursery worker, I completely agree with you on the dropping the kids off. It’s usually more the parents issue than the kids.
So can spanking be your next post? 🙂
I completely agree with you. However, I would like to second the comment about special needs children. My two children are 5 and 7- they know how to behave in “corporate” settings. But my 7 year old neice has autism. While my sister in law rarely takes her to weddings, etc…the whole family attends church together- there is NO childcare for a 7 year old autistic child at most churches. So yes, she brings her into corporate worship. And yes, when my niece gets disruptive she takes her out.
BUT there is a brief period of time between the beginning of disruption and the time when she is taken out…my sil HAS to use this time to train my niece. Otherwise she will NOT learn – and one day, she will be a 20 year old with autism…trust me we all need her to be “trained” then….
I wonder how different my parenting would've been a) without the help of friends, and b) without that content-filled, practical parenting course. Both shaped me (and I think it's good to encourage parents the way you do, when you see intentional training!).
I agree for the most part. I find it distracting to the adults and I find it unreasonable to expect a child to behave like an adult.
There are circumstances where it is either necessary (nursing mom) or okay (babysitter not available) but I really wish parents would remove the children when they become disruptive.
Honestly, I don’t go certain places because I don’t want my children to disrupt others. I try very hard to be considerate of others and wish everyone else would do the same.
Some churches don’t offer childcare, at all. So, I guess we should just stay home each week and not be active members of our church? The alternative is to get up each time the 2.5 year old makes a peep. Well, guess what? We’ve been doing that since she was 18 months old. Now she thinks it’s fun to go in the hallway. Even if she just has to sit, apparently, it’s more fun than sitting in the pew. I’m so glad that the members of my church are gracious and welcoming of kids, recognizing them as individuals and knowing that it does take teaching and that it doesn’t happen overnight.
I SO agree with you. When our kids were small, we’d occasionally hire a sitter (no family close by) and go out for a nice meal. It never seemed to fail that we’d end up by an ill-behaved child or crying baby whose parents were oblivious…very annoying when we were paying a sitter.
When we did have our kids in what could be termed an adult atmosphere and they made even the slightest disruption, either my husband or I would removed them immediately. You can imagine that was not convenient for us but OH MY how rude it would have been to impose all that on innocent bystanders!
Thank you for articulating what all people with manners are thinking.
I will definitely be forwarding this post!
GREAT points, Ari. I have a nephew with Downs and I almost included a "disclaimer" to extend GRACE to those who have additional reason to struggle with this. It's never as simple as "that".
I'm GLAD you elaborated! No apologies for goodness sakes!!
Thanks for weighing in; I appreciate your directness! I DO agree that boundaries are necessary (at every stage in life). Children comprehend more than they can communicate back to us, so even preschoolers can respond to consistent barriers. When my children were young, I never aspired to be their "friend"; now, especially with my oldest (17), I'd say that time is coming near. I think it made a difference to be her MOTHER from birth til now…not someone who'd let her (or the others) direct how I parented.
It's controversial simply because not everyone shares my way of thinking; and…I know who many who practice what I'm speaking against.
Hmmm, Malia, I never thought of church as a training ground the way you described it; I like the way you expressed yourself here! And…that you recognized what's good for them IS good for you!! 🙂
It was hard affording sitters, but at times, SO helpful; we were fortunate to find some teens who grew up with my kids (we still stay in touch). And sometimes, like you, we sacrificed doing something we wanted to because of childcare issues.
It's going "better" than I thought it would so far, lol. I'm reading comments in email, in the order they were posted so I don't quite know where I'm headed.
1) Some of the situations I described are expressly adult only, just implied. Maybe not even considered adult, but venues that require quiet, attention paid, etc.
Again, Amy, to me it's a matter of considering how "your" actions (or your child's) are affecting others. I couldn't bear the thought (back "then") of my kids keeping someone else from being able to hear or pay attention. I was very aware it was my/our job to train them…and yeah, it was work! Ain't nothin' easy about being a parent!!!! 😉
I didn’t have time to read many of the other comments, so perhaps I’m repeating someone else, but here’s my two cents.
My husband and I decided several years ago that we wanted to train our children to sit through church with us. Part of it was the germ warfare that was raged in the nursery, but most of it was personal conviction. To this end, we began training them to sit. This started AT HOME. I’ve written about it extensively on my blog. (http://www.vitafamiliae.com/?p=1567)
Once I thought they were ready, we tried going to church with them. We sat in the back and I was prepared for every contingency. Fortunately, they handled it well and have continued to impress even us with their ability to sit above and beyond what we thought they were capable of. I work with them at home if there’s an issue that comes up and we have tried to be considerate of others if the child becomes disruptive by removing them for consistency and discipline’s sake. So we are being faithful with their training.
All of that is to say this, if a parent is neglecting their child or allowing them to run rough-shod and disrupt the proceedings, I can certainly understand your distaste. I would be right there with you in wishing they would remove the child.
But I would also add, in terms of the “preciousness of others,” is there a way YOU could serve that parent? I’m sure it’s touchy, but what if you had reached over to that mama and handed her a treat from your purse for the child or offered to hold the child for her so she can listen. Said with love and a smile, most mothers would feel some embarrassment, but also great GRATITUDE that rather than sniffing and looking down your nose at them and their untrained child, you want to offer an extra hand. That might be all they need. We never know the situation. If she came in late and left early, perhaps it was the only way she could partake in ANY part of the service. What a blessing to her if someone would have offered to sit in the back with the child (if it was a small setting) and allow her to listen.
This wouldn’t work all the time and I certainly understand that. But perhaps showing her a little love and encouragement with her child may be just the impetus she needs to either ask someone HOW to train her child or just to be consistent in her training.
Finally, if you see a family with very small children walk into church, PLEASE do not judge them or turn up your nose until AFTER the service. We’ve had people who clicked their tongues and dropped their jaws when we’ve trooped in with our gang. Only to stop us afterward and tell us how good our kids were and how surprised they were.
Furthermore, an encouraging smile if I have to walk out with an unruly child that says, “Hang in there, mama, we understand that you are TRAINING and we encourage you in this and love you for being consistent, even when it’s embarrassing” will go MILES to making a parent less discouraged.
(I know I’ve had to leave with an unruly child before and had to ask a total stranger to sit with my other children while I was gone. It worked out fine, but if you find yourself sitting next to a family, let them know you’re willing to help in a pinch.)
We all have to teach our children to sit through things at some point. Encourage the weak, encourage those who are doing it well, and try to remember what it was like when you were training imperfect children. Extend some grace. And offer help when it’s appropriate. It might not solve the problem, but perhaps you will rest easier knowing that you spread a little love around.
Can I confess? I totally thought this post was going to be about how to respond when a child disrupts a “behind-closed-doors” adult activity, like, you know, hanky panky. Could my mind be anymore in the gutter?!
I agree with you. HOWEVER, I am a nursing mom, so anywhere my nursling is not welcome I generally stay away. I don’t have family that is really willing to babysit, so if the kids don’t go, I don’t go.
You've hit on a difficult area; I can think of a few ways to address it.
I tell ya, Mike, after reading The Domestic Fringe and what she accomplished, I think she should teach parenting classes. Her thought to work with her kids OUTSIDE of the venue (i.e. church) was brilliant!
Ahh, Rachel…I smiled reading your comment. I know it's hard to draw the line in the sand and ask people not to bring children (like at your reception) and I'm STUNNED anyone wouldn't respect that! YIKES!
I agree with you for the most part. Adult events are for adults and that is it. If you don’t have a sitter then don’t go.
For me church is a different matter. In order for children to learn how to behave you have to give them the opportunity to do so. I expect my children to be well behaved and quiet through the 1st part then before the sermon starts they go to nursery.
Awww, sweetie, you expressed yourself well! You should cut and paste and publish on your blog!
Well – you know you summed up the Rick/Richardson approach to child-raising. Worship readiness in our house involved the steely blue-eyed stare of my father – an IOU for the “talking to” you would get for misbehavior. That was another generation…
But I heartily agree – Andrew was removed from one dining experience and never misbehaved at the table again. Olivia responded well to the “steely-eyed” stare.
For those having church behavior issues – I highly recommend “Parenting in the Pews”. You can start with that method or migrate to it easily.
Loved it and hope all is well with you!
Rhonda, I wish everyone had the benefit of something our church offers: a class specifically designed to accommodate the special needs children (ranging from autism, cystic fybrosis, downs, etc.). It's a wonderful ministry to parents, in a safe, loving environment for the child. Workers are well trained and many work in this field outside of church.
No….I'm not suggesting that at all. You have the special challenge of dealing with this with a very young child. I KNOW it's not easy! You sound sensitive to the distraction to others, and I "hear" the cost to you personally. You're also wise to recognize this as a learning process, not something you can just snap your fingers and have it perfect. Thank you for taking the time to share your insight!
You know…I'd like to think it's not a case of poor manners when people don't work with their kids; just that they don't see the other side? I guess this is my attempt to express it….
First, Lora Lynn, thank you for sharing your link! I'll be sure to check it out, but hope others will as well.
Awww, thanks for chiming in! VERY nice to see ya "here". I had to smile at "steely-eyed" stare; my kids call mine the "Errrr face" :). They learned it well ;).
Robin, I totally agree with you. I have a degree in psychology/concentration early childhood. But no matter our degrees, most of this is plain common sense! Now, granted there are times and situations where a child may have to come w/ a parent to whatever function might be going on..but if the child begins to disrupt, it is the parent’s responsibility to remove the child from the scene. Teachable moments people! As far as church/worship service. This is what we did..My girls stayed in nursery through age 3. At 4 or into the 4th year (not early 4 at least is what i mean) I began bringing them into church service with us. At first we sat middle-back. That didn’t last long, I saw that it was better if we were up front (where we preferred anyway) because my oldest behaved better up front..it was like being close to the teacher in school, but it was the pastor. Anyway. We take/took them to the bathroom before going in, and started with coloring books/paper and crayons. I do not allow these to be brought out until we are done w/ all the music. Because I want them to be respectful and stand up when we do to sing. So, they color for several months, to a year, then we switch to just books (no coloring), then after they do that for a while, (or say by 1st, 2nd grade)no more books, sit and listen as well as they can. My daughter(8yrs), will actually take notes from the screen…which makes me happy 🙂
I’d like to say a hearty “Amen!” to you comments about keeping sick children at home. At the church I used to work at as a “paid childcare provider” (babysitter) and in their preschool; I can’t begin to count the number of times parents dropped of their children who were obviously not feeling their best. Sometimes they’d tell us that they had given their child something if they acted groggy (then dose them and keep them at home!!) One Mom dropped her child off, told me that the rest of the family was home sick and was surprised when she was called back to the nursery after her child had thrown up (on me), saying she hadn’t been acting sick. No, but she had been exposed….
I would implore parents to be considerate. Sure, you might have had plans for the morning you were to leave your child at preschool, but your child would be much happier at home and the other children and the teachers would be happier not catching what your child has.
VERY interesting post and discussion here in the comments. 🙂 You expressed yourself well – no reason for angry, nasty comments. No worries! 🙂
I love your perspective of “preciousness of others” — what a critical lesson for us all to learn and to teach our children! Wonderful – I am going to remember that expression.
I pretty much agree with what you and your commenters have been saying, but I esp appreciate what Arianne (To think) said about special needs children and trying to not judge other parents.
A child may appear to be typical, but may be struggling with Autism, ADHD, Tourette’s, etc
My son has ADHD and some emotional and social challenges PLUS he is significantly taller than any child his age. (Seriously – NEVER met a child his age and size. He looks at least 2 yrs older than he is.) When he was two, people thought we was four – and expected 4yrold behavior. BUT not only was he not four, but he had behavior and emotional issues. I wanted to tape a sign on his back, “Give me a break I am TWO!” Parenting him is brutal at times. Going anywhere in public often means that I will be judged as a parent and he will be judged as an “out of control” or “bad” kid. When a child looks like they are nine and are really only in first grade, plus they have challenges on top of that, it does not make for a pretty picture. Now that he is older, some outings go pretty well, but others still do not.
I am a non judgmental kind of person. It is just me. So I rarely have too much of an issue with other people’s kids acting out.
I agree, they should most often leave the service etc. (My husband or I stay with our daughter in the nursery because I am just not good with the crying it out thing. I am a wimp. And since I don’t want her disrupting the service, I just stay in the nursery or stay home.)
But esp at church, I think we need to respond with grace. We have NO idea what issues that person is facing. Maybe they are so low and they needed to hear the Word. Maybe they just couldn’t cope with leaving their child in a strange place. Maybe they are facing loneliness and despair. I just can’t bear to judge them. Honestly, I will sacrifice my concentration for someone who is hurting and needs to be there. (As I am sure you would as well.) 🙂
BUT HAVING SAID THAT a lot of the time, they DON’T need to have their kids there. They may be being inconsiderate. And bringing a contagious child anywhere that is not necessary is inconsiderate and selfish. (I guess that was judgmental LOL – but some things are pretty obvious. Don’t take infectious diseases into public gatherings.)
But even if someone does make these mistakes or does act inconsiderately, I think grace is the most important response a Christian should have. (That is NOT to say you aren’t having grace – I am just saying that I lean so much on the grace side, that I don’t get too easily ruffled. – Well most of the time! LOL)
I also really appreciate what Erin @ closing time said and I agree with her.
I want my children to be in the worship. I want them to dance and clap and sing. I want them to see other adults and children praising the Lord. I want them to feel the Spirit in the sanctuary. Maybe they are disruptive because they are so darn cute as they innocently praise the Lord. But I bet Jesus wants them there!
Our church dismisses the children after the first part of worship and I like that plan. They get enough and then they get to go play and learn child appropriate lessons. But when we were visiting Sue’s church, my son was too uncomfortable to go to their Sunday School, so I allowed him to stay in the service. And bless his ADHD heart, he did great! He sat still and didn’t make a peep.
BTW – my father was a minister and he loathed having disruptive children or babies when he was speaking. It totally threw him off. Some people are more easily bothered than others. When I am speaking or listening it just doesn’t bother me that much.
You did a great job Robin – and I think everyone here agrees, if we are in tune with our kids’ needs and the people around us, we will make the wisest and best decision for everyone involved. The best place for children is a place where they can be children. And when they are called on to be present or participate in adult settings, let them try and when they can’t handle it, exit immediately! Everyone will be less stressed. Including the kids! (Church sure is a great training ground for learning to sit still!)
And as parents we all know, things do NOT always go expected, so a big dose of grace is OFTEN called for! (And please don’t judge me for ending in a preposition – this is a comment ok!I am too lazy to fix it! LOL)
I think the point needs to be emphasized that once a child (who is attending an adult event) starts to disturb or disrupt (a.k.a. cry, yell, throw things, etc.), REMOVE the child from the room, or at least excuse your child and yourself to the BACK of the room.
Oh good topic!
There are events for children and there are adult only events. I never assume my child is welcome to every event to which I’ve been invited. If you are not sure, ask the hostess in such a way to allow her to say no graciously.
If you have planned an adult party and someone brings their 5YO (after you yourself got a babysitter) that changes the party/gathering. And that’s not fair to the host/speaker/whatever and other guests. And not fair to the kiddo either IMO.
We have always kept Sean in church with us (I’m kind of anti-nursery because as you say people bring their sick kids). When he was a toddler we sat in the back so we could make a quick exit if needed. He’s five now and he has learned to sit still for an hour. He knows we expect it and won’t tolerate anything else. And like you, we plan ahead and have stuff for him to do QUIETLY.
Sean knows that if he MUST speak to me while I am talking to another adult, he is to put his hand on my leg – once. And wait. It has taken a lot of practice and reminders. Learning not to interrupt is a life skill. It’s polite. I wish the people on TV news shows could learn it.
The key thing here, as in all things, is to be respectful to those around you.
Good topic, good post Robin.
Robin, I am so glad that you wrote about this subject. I just began attending church again although my children have been going for a year without me as my dear friend of mine has been taking them. That dear friend has taught my children to sit still and be reverent during worship services and for that I am blessed. However, and this may have been my mistake for sitting in the VERY BACK row, the husband and wife in front of us were allowing their son to yell, throw toys, and attempt to play with my children when clearly there wasn’t any reason they couldnt have either told their child to behave or taken their child out to the foyer for a few minutes. I found it extremely disrespectful to not only my family, but also to those around us.
You’re right, this is a hard topic to write about and express oneself about. I surely don’t mean to sound like a mean mother or member of my church. However, I still believe it is respectful of everyone involved if a noisy or disruptive child is taken out (even if just for a few minutes) so he or she can get their energy out–even if this means that the adult in charge loses out on worship services, the latest movie, a formal get together.
On the other hand, there are situations where I think we as adults can be more forgiving and understanding. For instance, before I had children I was extremely opinionated and judgemental of those parents who “allowed” their children to be disruptive in grocery stores and other places of business. It wasnt until later when I became a mother that I realized that a parent can’t always stop what they are doing (lets say half way done grocery shopping with their buggy nearly filled up) and go home just to come back later when their child is calmed down. Sometimes it is just not possible. I’ve learned to offer my help when wanted and not to judge. Hey, it is not like I paid to go grocery shopping like I would at a community theatre.
One more note: Playgrounds. I have seen way too many children’s parents reprimanding their children anywhere from yelling on the playset to getting dirty. Parents/caregivers–this is what the playground is for! Let them be kids and get down and get dirty. There is no harm in it as long as the children follow good safety rules like not throwing gravel and pushing others.
I am curious to hear other thoughts on this matter.
I think the bigger issue is not whether or not people allow their kids in church. That is a side issue. I don’t care in the least if people bring their kids into our church service even though we have one of the most outstanding children’s ministries in the area. What I think is at the heart of your post (hopefully I am not paraphrasing you wrong), is parents being inconsiderate of the distraction their children are being. It is simply a matter of removing your child from the situation when they are disruptive.
I never mind seeing kids in “adult” places, but I am amazed at how many parents simply ignore or inadequately deal with their children talking loudly, bouncing around or poking people around them. I was recently at a church service where a child continually ran up and down the aisle. Yet the parents just sat and stared straight ahead. That, to me, is disrespectful to the rest of us.
Am I crazy or is this common sense?
Very great post, Robin!
I have to be honest and say that the phrase “preciousness of others” kind of makes me bristle a bit. I totally and completely agree with the concept but there is something in the verbiage that doesn’t appeal to me. Just a personal thing, I know. I do completely concur with the “other-mindedness” you speak about and that is something both my husband and I try to model and instill in our girls.
In all honesty, with my oldest (now 4), I was the mom who let her little one stay with her too long in Big Church. We were doing a lot of church shopping at the time and we rarely stayed in one congregation enough for me to become familiar with the childcare. Additionally, she would have major separation meltdowns and as a first time mom, I was not confident enough to work through those issues. Clearly I had my own separation issues going on there, too.
Thankfully the people in the congregations we visited were always kind and gracious. I took her out of the sanctuary at the first moment of distraction, but then I ended up missing many sermons and growing bitter and resentful and not wanting to go to church at all.
Eventually, God spoke to my heart and reminded me I could trust HIM with her while we were apart. That helped encourage me immensely in leaving her in trustworthy child care.
My second daughter (almost 2) cries every single time we leave her in the nursery but she starts playing by the time we walk to the end of the hall. I personally do not think she is being manipulative; I think at that moment she is expressing the best way she knows how that she would rather be with me than not be with me. She doesn’t have the words to say, “Mommy, please stay here and play with me!” so she cries. I know there are situations that, even as an adult, I am hesitant and reluctant to enter into. Once the anxiety passes, I am fine. The same with my toddler – once the moment of stress and anxiety has passed and she sees she is still perfectly fine, she is happy to play with her friends and teachers.
All of that is to say that I think not all separation anxiety can or should be written off as “manipulative” or “power plays.” Children experience emotions just like we do – but they don’t have the life skills or verbal function to express it yet. BUT, too, they need the opportunity to discover that they can work through those scary and uncomfortable emotions and know that they will be okay.
Wow, maybe I should have written my own post on this, right? Sorry! One last thing – all of this that I am speaking of is in reference to church experience. I personally would never dream of bringing children to an event or environment that is clearly appropriate only for adults – weddings, movies, theater, nice restaurants, conferences, etc.
Again, great thoughts on what certainly can be a sensitive subject. You certainly handled it with grace and love!
I find it extremely frustrating that kids seem to be let loose anywhere (restaurants, shops – anywhere) to run wild like little hooligans. I would never have dreamt of behaving that way when I was a kid. I do agree that there are certain places kids shouldn’t be but also tink that if there are places such as church or libraries where people want quiet kids should be made to behave by their parents. I blame the parents when I see a misbehaving kid – they are doing their kids a disservice by not teaching them how to behave appropriately.
What a great conversational piece, Robin. I enjoyed reading the post and also all the comments. I think everybody has done a wonderful job of respectfully sharing their opinions in eloquent ways.
My opinion? Adult situations are just that, for adults. If anything I look forward to these occasions because it’s time for hubby and I to get out with adults and I get really frustrated by those who don’t follow the rules and bring their children. This includes weddings, adult movies, extreme fine dining restaurants, etc.
When it comes to church I think that it is wonderful to be worshipping together and encouraging children to learn how to behave during these times. However, I’m a firm believer that if your child is interupting the service or a meal or a shopping experience that they should be removed from the situation. I have been known to leave full shopping carts apologizing profusely as I left the store because my kids were not behaving appropriately. I always tell myself there are people who have specifically chosen to not have kids so why must they have to put up with my ill behaved ones? As moms I think we grow accustomed to the noise and can usually just tune it out, but for others they do not have these amazing abilities. They get annoyed, frustrated, and even angry, and rightfully so. It all comes down to the golden rule of treating others as you want to be treated…I don’t want to listen to whiny children during certain times when quiet is expected so why should other people be subjected to it?
Bravo, Robin!
I recently attended a wedding where a 6 year old boy was allowed to push every limit and boundary available. As a teacher – even when off duty, I can’t relax and enjoy myself when there are poorly behaved children around. I am wired to watch kids for safety and monitor their behavior, so I spent the entire night distracted by the little rascal at my table and wishing his parents had figured out how to corral his behavior.
I love how you framed the post with the idea of “the preciousness of others”. In an age when it seems to be “all about me”, we would do well to extend this idea into all areas of our lives.
Robin- Please tell your church leaders how much that I think that is a GREAT idea! And a wonderful outreach tool as well.
Unfortunately, no such luck here…And like the others stated, you did a great job handling the issue.
Hey;) You got the comments!
I agree and disagree;)
I totally agree that when a child begins to disrupt it’s time to take him out of the service.
I don’t agree that a child should always be in the nursery. “Germ warfare” was mentioned. No way would I put my son in the nursery many Sundays out of the year. When he was little the only times he got sick where after being in the nursery with sick children.
(GRR! Keep them home people!)
I think there are other legitimate reasons to keep a child in the service with parents.
I know you didn’t mean it this way, but it made me wince a bit when you said that maybe she was a single mom.
It’s a stereotype that I feel quite often. That single moms aren’t “quite” up to par or that they couldn’t be as wonderful a mom as moms with daddy around.
She very easily could have been married and had the same thing going on;)
I agree with you to a point– children should not be at most adult functions like weddings, etc. BUT that means that those involved in certain functions should try to offer childcare options for people. We had a nursery provided in the church during our wedding, just in case.
I feel that way about funerals, too, although when we were in a strange town for a family funeral and ALL the family we knew were there we had a one-year old no one wanted to take care of for us. We had driven over for the day so there was no hotel room to keep him in. I ended up staying outside the service in the parlor of the funeral home until a staff member took pity on me and showed me a spare room. We had to take him to the graveside, too, since his dad was a pallbearer. What should I have done? Just let my husband drive the three hours by himself (on his birthday, nonetheless) to the funeral with all his family there and stayed home with our son. Maybe, but the family certainly enjoyed having him around and said he was welcome– I was mostly worried about everyone else in attendance. But the family kept saying that children are a joy at funerals. But I don’t think I should’ve taken him into the service, since he would’ve been loud. So I compromised, I guess.
I’m still nursing our youngest, and have gotten used to taking him everywhere with me, but am unsure as to how old “newborn” qualifies. I don’t work outside the home, but there are times when it is probably not appropriate to have my nursing son with me. He’s currently 4 months. At church meetings with no childcare or at other events where both parents need to be present, we bring him with us. He’s a very quiet baby, but if he does cry I take him out immediately. My mom thinks this is not fair and that I should pump milk and leave him with the babysitter. My question is this: for others’ sake should I do something I don’t feel is necessary (i.e. teaching him to use a bottle, pumping, all that) just so someone doesn’t have to see me with my baby for an hour? Most of the time people at our church are understanding (I taught crafts at VBS this year with my son in the nursery down the hall — if he was hungry, they came and got me and I left someone else in charge for a few minutes. That was awesome.) But, other places don’t seem to be as accomadating to nursing mothers and I often feel out of place. That’s kind of a gray area, I know, but often a difficult one to navigate. Babies are only cute to have around until they start to get fussy.
P.S. Just to clarify: I meant “Babies are only cute to have around FOR OUTSIDERS until they start to get fussy.” (You know, the point when you start getting the dirty looks from little old ladies.) I, personally, like my babies all the time, and sometimes they are even cuter when they are crying. 😉 I just try not to let it get that far in public…
Ahhh, I'm loving how parents are sharing those things that worked for them! (Hmmm, if anyone reads this and has examples of what DOESN'T work, share those "un-tips", too. 🙂 ) How wise for you to realize your children responded better in the front; or do I say how BRAVE of you??! The bathroom tip? Definitely one to remember (or else you'll be dealing with it during the service).
Mary, you reminded me of a POOR judgment call I made during my tenure as PMO Director: a good friend whose 3rd child was enrolled in our program, brought him in one morning explaining that he had just thrown up in the car. She wasn't concerned that it was a bug because" he had just chugged a cup of Gatorade", and that's "all" he vomited. Because she had older children and he didn't look or act sick at all, I trusted her judgment and let him stay.
Oh, Janice…I MISS YOU! Reading through your dissertation, ummm, I mean comment 😉 I remembered some of our years-ago exchanges. Durn…must remember to stay in better touch. {How much did I love you ending a sentence with a preposition? That's soooo something I would've said!!)
I do think this is reasonable; to me, even if a parent needs to bring their child with them, doing so expresses regard for those who are trying to listen (if the circumstances suggest a quiet setting).
Ahhhh, the "interrupt" prompt–bravo for YOU! We tried something similar (for our children simply to place their hand on our forearm) if they needed to interrupt, and ideally we would not respond if they blurted into our conversation with another adult (same thing for when we're on the phone). (Oh….MY….why is it children go berserk when a mom receives a phone call???) WE were less consistent with enforcing this prompt, but it does work with consistent training, reinforcing, etc.
What a wonderful friend you have, indeed!
Jill, you've summarized well the point I was trying to make (in waaaay too many words, lol). I am not a "children should be seen and not heard" mom, but I DO think there are situations where that applies. This is a PARENT issue, not a disruptive child issue. My perspective is shaped by how I see a parent respond when their child disrupts an adult setting; if the child has the self discipline to at least be quiet enough for those around him to follow the speaker (or wedding or WHATEVAH), it's all good. But if a child is visibly or audibly distracting others and the parent ignores it or is completely oblivious? I have a hard time with that…grace eludes me. Of course, then, I typically wonder what "else" is going on behind the scenes, but at that point, I've totally disengaged with what I'm there for in the first place. On the other hand, if I see the parent making a concerted effort to deal with the disruption or at least tuned into how their little one is affecting others, I just wanna help them. I feel for them, because yes, I have been there and done that and burned the tee shirt!!!
I love your honesty and candor here; I'm making people *bristle* now, which is alright with me–at least you aren't lukewarm ;).
Parenting isn't for cowards! It's hard work 24/7…but I'm afraid some (and I'm not even referring to those situations I've mentioned in my post…) really need help. They, themselves, were raised in an environment that was less than ideal. I was in the check out line of a department store this week and the family in front of me broke my heart (mom, dad, grandmother, two children). The boys were SO ugly to their mom and grandmother, did the opposite of what they asked, hit the mom in the face, talked back to the grandmother…and I wondered what it was like when they weren't in public. It was very sad to observe :(.
I'm enjoying this conversation, too, Mel! I guess I worried I was igniting a fuse, but you're right–commentors have regarded their "neighbors" (but here and beyond the blog).
Kim, I wonder if the parents of this little boy enjoyed themselves. See? I'm always wondering what's going on in the mind of those around me, especially when I don't get the choices made by others.
Rhonda,
Ooooo, Lizzie, you're right! I even thought about that–that what if she was there alone and her husband chose not to attend church or couldn't for whatever reason (I just didn't write that). Oh, my…I'm running out of time now (have an early appt), but I will go back and re-word that. Thank you! You KNOW me well enough to know I didn't mean that to be offensive, and thank you for kindly pointing it out!
I totally **knew** what you meant without further clarification :). You're cute yourself to come back and qualify.
I should have clarified, too, Robin that I didn't really think you personally were implying the "manipulation" thing with the separation anxiety. I think there in Christian parenting circles there tends to be this notion that when kids express negative emotions, it's all about power struggles. I think that sure, sometimes there is going to be that struggle for power, but I also think we tend to gloss over some very real and legitimate God-given emotions when our focus is on "winning" instead of empathy and compassion. But yeah, I didn't re-read your specific words before I said that – I should have clarified it better!
Also, I have to say that parenting a strong-willed toddler has caused me to examine so many of my own responses to God in ways I never imagined before! It is most certainly a daily experience of growth and self-examination for me.
Great topic, Robin. Now, may we talk about slightly older kids?? I completely agree that church is an appropriate training ground for kids, which is why I love that our church offers a program for younger kids (K-3rd grade) which has them sit in the service for the beginning parts, and then has them leave for their own worship service for the second half (the sermon, basically). That was good training for my kids.
What is NOT good training is bringing something to distract kids from the worship service. I see this all the time–kids reading library books or coloring or writing notes to their parents. Don’t get me wrong, coloring may be appropriate for very young kids–I’m talking about school-aged kids who can and should be paying attention. I mean, if you’re training your kids to read a library book in church, you’re just training them that church is either a) boring or b) doesn’t matter that much or c) can’t be understood by a child. All of these are false.
When our kids were young we helped them follow along in the hymn book (yes, we still use those!) and showed them where we were in the order of service. We engaged them in the worship service. Pretty soon, without promting from us, the girls started bringing notebooks to church and taking notes on the sermon. They are older now (like your kids’ ages), but I’m so proud of the way they truly engage in worship and think through what they’re hearing.
Now . . . on to those teenage girls who talk through the entire service! AARRGGHH!!!!
Megan,
I wanted to qualify my comment,too, because I did use the word ‘manipulation’. I don’t think that ALL crying and separation anxiety is manipulative in nature. I was thinking of older children who can articulate their needs.
A child, like your two year old, is doing the best she can to tell you what they need, sometimes by crying.
I was thinking specifically of my experiences teaching pre-schoolers (4 years+) and the times I saw blatant manipulation of children who were very comfortable in the program.
I saw heartbroken Mommies finally leaving in tears after a horrific fit that lasted 30 minutes or more, for the child to simply dry their tears and start playing within five minutes.
It seemed to be a ratio: the longer the Mom (or guardian) stayed and argued and coerced, the longer the child took to recover when the leaving finally took place.
Children did the best when the parents were very consistent. They had a drop off routine and stuck with it. They helped put away backpacks and found toys. Gave hugs and kisses and the left. I think the children were more confident when the parents were lovingly consistent. Emphasis on loving!
Emily
Boo! Hiss! MAJOR negative feedback!
Just kidding:o) I understand your point of view, but I don’t agree 100%. To Think is to Create, Malia, and Erin all already said what I would have, though. These were my exact thoughts while reading your post. I think the key is that ALL need to show consideration and think about things from the other party’s point of view and then extend a little grace in not getting too upset if someone doesn’t do things the way you feel they should. I’m sure you would have taken the time to get to know this woman and her situation if you’d had the opportunity and if it continued to be a real problem you would have addressed it lovingly.
My biggest problem with this post is that what is considered an adult setting varies so widely. One person may consider a nice restaurant an adult setting and be disturbed by even well-behaved children. You don’t think so? I have seen this topic hotly debated on several internet forums. I was shocked by some of the things said. There are people who simply do not like children, think they are a nuisance in any setting, and believe public outings with children should be limited to playgrounds and Chuck E. Cheese. Balance and consideration for others all around really are key.
Robin, typically I agree with you (and I believe that removing a disruptive child is a no-brainer), but as an adoptive momma to a child who struggled to attach and has special needs, I also believe in the exception.
I wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere (including church) for over a year if I followed this philosophy. At first our little Tongginator felt absolutely fine separating from us. That was the problem. She could have cared less whether we were in the room or not, which is a VERY scary thing. We had to teach her to rely on us solely before we could allow her to relearn independence. Later, as she started attaching, she experienced a primal fear reaction to being without me. She remembered losing her foster family – she was justifiably terrified it would happen again. Attachment issues are a very scary thing and need to be tackled head-on, with a huge commitment. Adoptive moms, especially those who adopt an older baby, toddler or child through foster care or internationally, really, truly need to feel welcomed as a unit that first year or two wherever they go, especially in church.
Also, my little Tongginator has sensory processing disorder. In most cases, it’s an invisible special need that lessens with time and therapy as the child and family develop coping skills. But – especially when she was ages one to three – God help the stranger or acquaintance that touched my Tongginator in any way. (She barely allowed ME to touch her.) She would immediately melt-down in a way that had others asking if she was autistic.
So… exceptions. I try to remember that many exist.
(And I’m sorry for the long comment that turned into a post. But I HAD to take this opportunity, since I’m preaching to the choir – other adoptive mommas – over at my blog.)
I think Erin summed up my opinion nicely so I won’t repeat her. 🙂
As some others have pointed out, I think my only exception to this is newcomers to a church. When we went through a terrible situation with a church we left and “church hopped”. It was painful for us and the kids. We didn’t want to be there…we missed our old church. I barely sat there without a tantrum…so it was extra hard on our 4 and 7yo. I was not confortable just leaving them in the churches care when I knew nothing about that church yet. I know that some believe that churches = safety. All I have to say is, “churches are on the frontlines of heart warfare. We’re battling to win some bitter, hard hearts out there.” Sounds horrible…I don’t mean it to, but I was a pastor’s wife so I know.
I think you did a GREAT job of explaining your point of view!
GREAT post! Many parents today simply don’t have the training or example themselves to understand appropriate public (ie. meeting, conference, church service) etiquette. We live in a society that is so focused on acceptance and self that all too often the basic courtesies and respect for others gets completely lost.
I am a great proponent of training children, but not at the expense of others and those who know my boys are thankful for that ;0). Thank you so much for going out on that limb!
Well, Robin, I think you still haven’t received the dissent you were looking for, so I will step up to the plate. I disagree particularly about children in a worship service.
When I was a child, my mother taught us to sit still and be quiet in church. She told us that she wanted to listen to the sermon, and we mustn’t distract her or other people. If we squirmed too much or asked for too much attention, she removed us from the sanctuary and we were disciplined. It was effective. We learned that church is a place where one must be quiet and must always be conscious of the impressions of others.
My mother is a strong, confident woman. She does not engage in hand-wringing and self-doubt. I have only once in my life heard her express regret over any of her parenting decisions, and it was this very one.
“Children learn who God is,” she said to me once I was grown, “by how their parents treat them in church. I should have snuggled you. I should not have told you to stop distracting me. I should not have dragged you out to punish you so often. Maybe then you would have found it easier to believe in the love of Jesus.”
Robin, you seem concerned to really show grace to people, but I am less confident of your commenters. There seems a prevalent attitude that parents who allow their children to be “distracting” in church are either bad parents, confused parents, or inconsiderate parents. the possibility that it could actually be a conscious choice in service of larger goals of parenthood does not appear to have occurred to anyone.
I take my children out of worship if I think they are so loud that someone cannot hear the pastor. That is a practical consideration. But children learn who God is by how their parents treat them in church, and I want desperately to teach my daughters that God loves them, as they are in their present condition. I want them to know that God’s love cannot be earned by our good behavior, and cannot be turned away by our bad behavior. I want them to learn that we go to church to adore this loving, good God, rather than to please the people who are observing us. And I do that by turning off the part of my brain that is always conscious of that lady glaring at us when JellyBean dances to her pew, or that man turning up his nose when Sweetpea flops onto the floor in a heap.
There is more to say on this subject, but this already a dreadfully long comment. Maybe I will work up a post on this later.
Good points. I should have mentioned in my comment that I simply switched seats with the child of mine that this member’s child was trying to play with. That surprised the little man and he quickly found his crayons once he realized he’d have to get past me to play with my child. It was kind of funny in a way. I’d blog about it, but I dont want to hurt this woman’s feelings as I know she probably reads my blog. Oh dear…
Hey…thanks for the shout out about my toes. I am guessing I know exactly who the Mom was you wrote about…and you don’t…which explains why your gracious, southern self wrote such an uncharacteristic blog. What if that young lady is on the brink of a divorce and is required to work hours that keep her from her children or loose her job? What if she desperately struggles in sin and feels out of place, unacceptable, inadequate…and still comes because that class is her last hope? What if she was any number of people hiding countless tragedies behind a Sunday School outfit who have no concept of church etiquette and culture?
For me, all the polite rules apply in a restaurant, theater, or social gathering and I say “here, here” to well behaved children and somewhere over “there, there” to disrespectful rug rats. Now church, when you go to meet Christ, should allow for a significant learning curve.
Are your toes O.K. with my toes?
At our old church, we tried leaving our dairy-allergic toddler daughter in the nursery. They kept feeding her dairy. Cheddar Goldfish crackers, you name it. It would cause digestive issues for 2-3 weeks thanks to the wonders of dairy. We started refusing to send her to the nursery and tried to work with the director on doing something about the teenagers who kept giving our kid dairy, but it never did much good. We changed churches and problem was solved!
I have always been very careful about whisking my kids out of anywhere if they get fussy/distracting, though.
My other issue is that I expect my 6yo to not only sit quietly, but to *pay attention* in church. I expect her to stand when we stand, to sit when we sit, to bow her head when we pray, and to LISTEN to the music and the sermon, even if she doesn’t really get it yet. And she’s a highly distractible kid with sensory issues, but she GETS it. We started bringing her in at age 4 1/2 (we had a talk about expectations a week or two before that) and we’ve never really had ANY problem with her in the service. She does prefer to sit on my lap, but she’s short and can’t see through heads. 🙂
Then we sit right behind some THIRTEEN-year-olds who are reading comic books during the service and she’s totally distracted. Drives me bonkers. 🙂
I have several disclaimers to make before I comment:
*I absolutely agree that if a child is being disruptive the parent should attempt to quiet the child or remove him or her out of respect to the other people. (By disruptive I do not mean a whispered question to the parent or a newborn that has squeaked thrice. I mean something like the scene you described.)
*I agree about teaching children how to behave in church, and at the same time love what Veronica said about making it a loving environment. I do think you can combine the two, teaching appropriate behavior and being accepting and affectionate, rather than playing the drill sergeant.
*I LOVE Parenting in the Pew and have recommended it many times. It’s not just about teaching kids to behave, it’s about what real worship is and how to share that with your kids.
Now my comment…I really disagree with the idea that worship, weddings and funerals are “adult” settings. (I see this idea in the comments, not necessarily in your post.) Worship has already been covered in this discussion, but weddings and funerals are also important rituals for children to experience.
Funerals are a way to learn about mourning the loss of loved ones and balancing that mourning with rejoicing in the eternal life that follows. If the child has lost someone close to them, they need to mourn and find closure just like adults do. If this person was not particularly close to them, this is still a good experience for the child so when someone close to them dies (and someone will) that won’t be their first experience with a funeral, which can be intimidating and scary for some children.
I learned much of this from experience (I have four kids, ages 8-13). When they were little I thought it better to shield them from the sadness at a funeral. My husband’s sister died young and unexpectedly. My daughter took it very hard. I was glad it wasn’t her first funeral, because for a timid, sensitive child the funeral experience itself was intimidating–going through that at the same time as mourning her aunt’s death would have been even more difficult for her. Looking back I can see where taking them to funerals when they were younger instead of hiring a sitter would have better equipped them for the loss they were to experience.
While I would never bring my child to a wedding if they were expressly not invited, I wish brides would reconsider that viewpoint. In a society that values marriage less and less, weddings are a wonderful opportunity to show children that we celebrate marriage, that it’s important, that it has immense value. I think a wedding should be a day for everyone you love to celebrate the step you are taking. We chose to forgo a more formal setting in favor of one that was appropriate for all ages.
Please don’t take this as criticism toward brides who have a formal wedding and don’t include children–I really do understand and as I said, I would (and have) honored their wishes.
I absolutely think there is a time for adults-only events–I just think sometimes we go too far with it. Isn’t it a probability that a lot of the adults around us who don’t seem to know how to behave correctly in adult settings are products of parents who never taught them?
Finally, sorry about the novella I just wrote in your comment section. I’m afraid you’re bearing the brunt of my not blogging any more.
Great discussion, Robin!
Whoops! Forgot to close that italic code. 😉
Very interesting discussion. I particularly loved Veronica’s comment– and I wholeheartedly agree with Jeana that funerals and weddings ought not be considered “adult only” events.
I really love the idea of the “preciousness of others,” although I have not heard that particular phrasing before. And it is actually because of that principle that I tend to lose patience with the sense of entitlement that demands no distractions, no unpleasantness, nothing that is offensive to me. It’s because it’s NOT about me that I try to extend grace, grace and more grace to children and parents in public settings– up to and including airplanes and fancy restaurants! Loving and fully embracing all the members of my community means that I embrace them where they are, as they are, whatever the stage of their journey to maturity.
Of course that doesn’t mean we ought to let ourselves our our kids be deliberately rude or inconsiderate; but I actually believe that when someone else is inconsiderate or rude– even deliberately rude!– to me that my job is to extend grace. I ranted a bit about it here: http://recoveringsociopath.blogspot.com/2009/05/source-of-empathy.html
I should clarify, Robin, that I don’t believe you are walking around with a nasty sense of entitlement– you are clearly motivated by a desire to honor and be considerate of others. 🙂
One other thing– I’m a little disturbed by the idea of sending special needs kids off into their own special needs class at church. I do see the benefit of it for both the parents, who must be grateful for the break, and the kids, who can receive personalized attention. But what kind of message does it send to special needs kids that their weakness or limitations means they are somehow unfit to participate in the larger life of the community?
What about an adult with really loud verbally expressed Tourette’s? Clearly such a person would be a distraction and prevent some people in the congregation from hearing the preacher (incidentally, I think it’s interesting that “in church” translates for so many people into “hearing preaching.” Worship and Eucharist are just as much a part, eh? But that’s another subject). But of course we wouldn’t ask that person to leave the room. Those of us with fewer limitations get to accommodate those who have more limitations. That’s the way self-sacrificial community works.
And if we’d be accommodating for a special needs adult, why not for a special needs child?
And if we’d accommodate a special needs child, why not any child who for whatever reason– bad parenting, or a sugary breakfast, or just plain old immaturity– has himself run up against his own limitations that day?
I should further clarify that you are addressing this issue from the perspective of parents training their own children to behave appropriately, rather than as someone who is offended by other children, so of course you bring the rule about the preciousness of others to bear in a particular way. I get that.
The question of what constitutes “appropriate behavior” is probably a whole other discussion…
This is a great discussion.
I have often heard the line that children can be trained to sit through church. I agree that they can be trained to sit still and listen but I don’t agree that one should.
I firmly believe that the child is now spending so much time and energy on sitting still and not getting into trouble that the message and the worship are going to sail right past their heads.
I’ve seen mom’s suggest that you pinch or squeeze the child who is fidgeting and they will quickly obey. They will also quickly come to resent church.
Yes, there are times in a child’s life that they will have to sit still and pay attention but most of these times occur when they are older and more able to sit still and self-regulate.
I want my kids to see church as a place that we go together with joy, not a place to dread and worry over. Which is why we choose a church with an excellent children’s program that gradually introduces kids to the service as they mature, but still teaches the truths of the Bible in a way they can understand.
However, if we attend a church without this programming, we may be the ones your other readers will want to glare at.
Our children have gone with us pretty much everywhere we’ve gone since they were infants, with the exception of a few specific “date” outings. They’re now 13 and 9. They’ve behaved beautifully in public almost all of the time — in church, restaurants (including a white-tablecloth establishment where we’d have left our 2-year-old with family except there was no family available, and he did fine), stores, weddings, funerals, you name it — to the point where we could hardly go to a restaurant without their receiving some kind of compliment from strangers for their behavior, when they were small enough for good behavior to be surprising. You can call us lucky if you want, but I truly believe that they behaved well because, as Veronica put it (gosh, I think it was Veronica): They knew what behavior was expected of them, and that nothing else would be tolerated.
There was one home-church and Bible study setting where I started staying home with my child rather than attending, but that was because one woman who attended was SERIOUSLY bothered by ANY noise made by a child, or even by the presence of one. I was NOT going to hire a sitter twice a week because of her issues, and my “otherness” was not “precious” enough to that woman to encourage her to be a little understanding (seriously, she would freak out if I had my toddler outside the building, walking around, and she could see us through a window), so I missed a year or two of Bible studies for her sake. Once my children could read and write, they began participating in the Bible study and have done so ever since.
We tried the nursery during church services for a while because it seemed “the thing to do” — we gave it up. First, the nursery where we attended was in a totally non-soundproofed room just at the bottom of the staircase that led up to the meeting areas, and our daughter’s howls of anguish could be heard by everyone in the building at full volume, and no she didn’t stop after a few minutes. Second, they got sick EVERY TIME we took them to the nursery, usually from a baby who had “just allergies”. (THERE’S a post all on its own.) And most importantly, like many of the mothers who’ve posted here, we believed it was important training for them.
I do respect your bravery for posting about this. 🙂 And I agree, as others have done, with your overall idea that parents need to be aware when their children behave badly and deal with it so that others aren’t overly distracted. But dare I say that a person who is easily distracted by ordinary well-behaved children in his/her presence has, in my opinion, his/her own issues, and perhaps needs training as much as the child does? I am not speaking of bad behavior (running around, continual squawking) or of actual loud noise during an event like a wedding; that’s when someone needs to take the child outside. Just the kind of thing that goes along with childhood, like the occasional happy sound, or Veronica’s daughter plopping in a heap on the floor, or my son’s madd drawing-on-the-bulletin skillz. 🙂
I do think it worth noting that Jesus Himself said “let the little children come unto me.” So often we as adults forget that — and he was speaking to the Apostles!
“I firmly believe that the child is now spending so much time and energy on sitting still and not getting into trouble that the message and the worship are going to sail right past their heads.”
I agree that this is sometimes the case. I respectfully but firmly disagree that this is always the case. My kids have all joined us in church at a very young age and we have had countless discussions, broached by them, about what happened in church that day–often on days when they appeared to be daydreaming during the service. Children are capable of understanding more than you think.
I am not making a general proclamation that all children should join their parents in church…but your comment seems to imply that you somehow think parents are mistreating their children if they choose to bring them into worship with them.
Early in our parenting, we were introduced to the concept of “preciousness of others”, a principal gleaned from scripture and transferable regardless of faith. In its most simple form, it’s the practice of considering others and how your actions affect them, regarding them more highly than your own preferences. We have been diligent to instill this in our own children, and have tried to model this in our lives.
The above is my favorite part 🙂 It’s sort of sad how that principle of putting others before yourself and being sensitive of others has been lost in an “It’s all about ME” world. That same concept has RUINED parenting! Sadly, it’s a lost art to parent well. Our church had numerous “parenting” classes/sermons because honestly, proper, Scriptural “parenting” with a GOOD dose of God’s grace can solve a lot of ILLS! (hallelujah :p )
I’m so encouraged by all the great posts!! Yay–there ARE other parents out there who are doing Proverbs 22:6!!! (double hallelujah!!)
Hmm, I haven’t commented in a while, Robin, but I’ve been reading! And this post dragged me out of the woodwork 🙂 Although, I’m actually responding more to the conversation in the comments than your initial post at this point.
I wonder if we may actually be talking about two separate categories of events here. Church/Worship services/Bible studies on the one hand and other Adults Only Venues and Events.
As far as children in church (and other Body of Christ events and gatherings) I agree with Veronica and others that children should be welcomed into the service, actively taught not to be disruptive, but rather considerate to others; but not necessarily required to behave like miniature adults.
For example, We ask our daughter (6 years old) to participate in the liturgy, sing the hymns, join the prayers and observe Communion. During the sermon itself she takes out her Picture Bible and crayons and occupies herself quietly.
My son (2 years old) sits with us during the hymns and liturgy and goes to the nursery during the sermon. He is not perfectly quiet, can sometimes be disruptive (he is then taken out until he’s able to quiet down), but he is learning to sing and pray together with the body of Christ– of which he is a member.
That to me is the most important thing under the category of Church Functions. I want my children to grow up thinking of themselves as participating members of the Body of Christ, not nuisances to be tucked away where they won’t be a bother.
When it comes to other Adult Events, I have much less strong opinions. In general I prefer to teach my children to conduct themselves in such a manner that if I DO take them to a fancy restaurant, wedding or other social function, they will not embarrass themselves or their parents. If they are specifically NOT invited, or if it seems like a situation in which they’d be unwelcome, or bored and uncomfortable, I won’t bring them.
HEY FRIENDS…I’LL READ & RESPOND TO EVERYONE IN THE MORNING…I’VE GOT A SICK BABY AND WHEN THEY’RE 16? THEY STILL NEED THEIR MAMA. If you check in, please pray for her, we’re headed to the doctor in the morning….:( She’s supposed to go to Guatemala Monday for a mission trip, and Rachel not only feels awful (with a fever), she’s very concerned about being able to go. Thanks…
Jeana, I do not feel that parents are mistreating their kids at all if they have them in the service. I have had kids in the service with me too. But they at times may have been distracting to others as I don’t expect the same behaviour from a three year old as I do from an adult and do not feel it is my kid’s best interest to punish them for what is childish behaviour, such as whispering, fidgeting and such.
I am concerned about the whole “training” a very young child to sit still, not parents who choose to worship as a whole family. That was not my intent at all.
Gotcha–thanks for clarifying. 🙂
Will be praying here–hope she can go 🙁
I wonder why everything’s posting in “italics?” 😛
I INSTANTLY knew what “class” you had attended when you used that phrase even though I had never heard it before.
I typed “babywise” + “preciousness of others”
Viola-this is the first thing that came up.
From
http://www.ezzo.info/York/yorkletter1.htm
“While working for Gary, I was given the job of monitoring GFI’s “enemies” on the Internet. In my early months at GFI, I was confused as to why Gary would have enemies, but it became crystal clear soon enough as I continued reading the well-reasoned comments from his critics. I also learned from personal experience why Gary would have enemies. He routinely treated those around him with contempt. In fact, Robert Garcia once told me that Gary thought everyone on his staff (with the exception of Robert) were “idiots.” This was a very candid admission and one that troubled me greatly. This attitude seemed at odds with the Ezzos’ supposed concern for the “preciousness of others,” a term they use frequently in their speeches and writings.”
I believe God is deeply grieved over MANY (though not all) of the teachings of the Ezzos and others with their mindset.
If you comments have been mostly positive, it’s due to your readers. Trust me, if you opened this discussion in other places, you would find very passionate replies.
To see what I’m talking about, check out:
http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/topics/unprepared.php
By the way, to answer your question, I think children should remain with their parents during worship. Our church doesn’t have space or staff for a nursery. There is a baby or toddler in every pew. Wailing kids go outside, but little noises and movements are tolerated by all. EVERY pew has a small child. I think children should SEE their parents in large group worship times!
I agree that children should not be noisy during weddings. I personally think that is the bride’s fault, however. If children are not welcome, she should not include them on the invitation. If they are welcome at the reception but not the ceremony, she should provide childcare during the ceremony. Expectations should be stated. That goes for everywhere! We shouldn’t have to read minds!
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/moodyfamily/gfi.html
You might enjoy the check list found in the above link.
This is such a great discussion–can we please not turn it into an Ezzo/anti-Ezzo argument just because Robin used a phrase he often used? The original post has nothing to do with that.
Robin, I hope your daughter recovers soon.
I opened this same can of worms in my office recently after sitting through a Sunday morning worship service being distracted … not by the babies … but by the parents who were passing babies all around and playing with them and by parents who paraded in and out of the worship service numerous times. It was so distracting that I didn’t get a thing out of the service. Babies are CUTE! Who wouldn’t want to watch a baby instead of listening to a sermon? But when I mentioned it at work, I was met with a great deal of opposition, including “I work 40 hours a week and that hour with my baby is important to me.” So stay home and listen to a service on the radio or watch one on TV while you play with the baby. That hour of worship is important to me too. I suggested a Family Worship Room to our church’s preschool/children’s director, but so far nothing has been done.
This has been a big topic of conversation in my family lately. I’m the oldest of four kids and my parents always made sure that we behaved our best in places like church and especially other people’s houses. They watched everything we did and disciplined us later if we didn’t behave. To this day I don’t touch anything when I’m in someone else’s house.
So it came as a shock when we saw other children allowed to “just be kids” by yelling at their parents or other adults, hitting, throwing things, etc. in public. And it’s even more of a shock to me now as an adult when I see this behavior more and more often. My parents especially get frustrated with young parents that make excuses for the one or two children that they have. They figure that if they could make four kids behave, then surely parents can manage one child.
I used to go to a large church where parents tended to let their kids run around in the back during the sermon. And yes, it was very distracting. The pastor finally had enough and told the parents FROM THE PULPIT that they needed to sit their kids down if they were going to be in there and that he didn’t want to see them running around anymore. It was awesome. He shouldn’t have had to say anything, but I’m glad he did.
Knowing that we can’t depend on other parents to watch their kids, my family decides up front if we will allow children at an event. If it’s a non-kid event (like a baby shower or wedding reception) we make it very clear to all invited. If children are invited, we assign someone to watch the kids when they’re out of view of the adults (like in the back yard). And that someone has to be somebody who’s willing to step in and manage bad behavior. We also block off areas of the house where we don’t want the kids to go. It was difficult to make the decision to be strict with our guests’ children, but it was necessary after we had some new furniture damaged in full view of the parents.
I completely concur with this post….and you covered it in plenty of love, that’s why it was so well received 🙂
Well, I’m not much for negative commenting, but I will offer a comment of disagreement.
You said it yourself, it takes practice. If children are never exposed to “adult” situations, it’s unreasonable to expect that they’d behave perfectly when they are finally introduced to these scenarios. I am not at all bothered by babies who cry or toddlers who whine in church. They’re babies, and that’s what babies do. I like to think that if Jesus was physically present, he’d pick up that crying baby and pat him and hold him tight rather than asking his mother to excuse herself and the child from corporate worship. What DOES bother me is middle schoolers who whisper and giggle and pass notes all through the service. But, can you blame them? They’ve been taken to “children’s worship hour” every Sunday since they were born, and there they were entertained and fed. So, when 6th grade arrives and these kids are thrown into worship with no practice, of course they’re bored and behave inappropriately. Yes, nursery care is available. But leaving children isn’t always as easy as you described, even if you do follow all those steps. I don’t believe that children are being manipulative when they cry when Mama drops them off. I think that they are genuinely distressed (especially if they are with Mama for the rest of the week and not used to separating). I for one am not about to teach my children that church is a place to feel fear and anxiety. I want them to feel loved and welcomed by their church family. Thankfully, my church family thinks along the same lines that I do. If I ever attended a church where my children or I were made to feel bad because they behaved like children do, I wouldn’t return a second time. Check out Matthew 19:13-15. The Disciples thought that the children were being distracting and tried to remove them like the original post and many of the comments suggest doing. But Jesus says no. He wants the children to come to him. They aren’t a bother to Jesus–they’re pure joy to him! So, I take my kids to worship (and wherever else I need go to, really) and know that, even if there are a few stares and negative comments, Jesus is cool with it. What more do I need?
Sometimes what we say or do under the banner or name of Christianity makes me realize why some people don't wanna have anything to do with it.
I guess it depends on the child exactly when that shift should occur, but it seems natural to me to begin it with the "next" school year; of course, children's abilities vary, but grade school seems reasonable. Our former church used fill-in-the-blank sermon outline pages and that made it VERY easy for my kids to follow; they LIKED listening to fill in the blanks. Our current one doesn't do this and my daughter is the only one who takes notes. The boys? I'm not sure how engaged they are, but they do appear to listen attentively. 🙂
Jenni,
Yours has NOT been an easy road, but you sound so wise with all you've learned through the process; I'm sure you're a wonderful encouragement to those in your sphere! See? I realize how "easy" I've had it as I listen to some of the responses in this thread; it's hard enough parenting…when additional challenges are presented, how much more so!
I'm so sorry about whatever circumstances led you to leave; I've seen enough ugliness in the church to understand great pain was involved. S i g h … it just shouldn't be that way….:(
Shera, thanks for your encouragement (why do I feel the other shoe is about to fall? I been able to read comments yet, but I guess I've been **warned** (nicely) in Twitter, so I'm skeert, lol.
ANOTHER AUTHOR UPDATE:
Hey guys, I picked up responding to comments this morning, but I’m out of town, headed to a baby shower I’m co-hosting for my sister-in-law. Because this is a challenging conversation and so many of you are taking time to share your honest opinion, I DO think comments are warranting personal reply :). I haven’t yet read those not replied to, and I’m in the middle of a loooong one in response to Veronica’s dissent. But…time is of the essence, we’re headed out, and I’ll get to them ALL soon, I promise.
(Thank you for understanding and checking back!)
~ Robin
Our church does not have a nursery area. It has a Sunday School, but that’s for older kids. So when our baby was actually a baby, we would only bring her to church if both parents could go – one to stay with the older kids in the pre-Sunday School time, the other to take the baby OUT if need be.
My desire to have my children understand the importance of church does not come before your right to hear the service with a minimal amount of interuptions.
If someone wants to have a child-free wedding, that’s fine. We won’t go, but they can choose to do it that way if they like. My children would be deeply hurt by not being invited to a relative’s wedding, and I would be hurt too by the snub. Weddings are not – to me, at least – adult-only activities.
Someone who brings a kid to a cocktail party, though? They’re just rude.
I do want to say though that we never removed our crying toddler to punish her – it was simply out of consideration for other people.
Honestly, I don’t know how to respond to Veronica’s dissent without sounding offensive; that is not my intention, but I respectfully disagree that the church is the place to teach our children that God loves them by allowing them to “be children” or by letting them maybe be just a “little” rambunctious. (I did read where you take them out if they get too disruptive, btw) I can love and snuggle them millions of times during the week and remind them that as much as I love them, God loves them more. There are numerous ways to show God’s love throughout the week through Family devotions, everyday life and just about every minute of the day!!
But God also requires a deep respect from us. Because He is a holy and righteous God, it is VERY important that I teach my children to have respect for Him and for the church service while at the same time a respect for those around me “esteeming others better than myself.” When I am teaching him to “Be still, and know that I am God” in church I’m also teaching him for the future when he’ll be “listening” to what God says from His word either through personal devotions or messages in church, or whatever.
I’m afraid we live in a world where children (and now adults) have to be “ENTERTAINED” in order to learn anything. That’s a WHOLE ‘nuther long post that I won’t expound on. 🙂
Again, I’m sorry if this sounded offensive–honestly not my intention at all . . . I’m a yankee living in the south and still learning how to “speak the truth in love.” 🙂
Wow, there are a LOT of comments on this post – I wanted to read them all, but don’t have time. 🙂 What an interesting subject! I have a VERY active 18-month-old, who LOVES to play in the nursery. For me, and for this boy, I know that he belongs in the nursery. And I think he loves going in there because he is used to it – he’s been in there 2-3 times a week since he was 4 months old. Not that he never has any separation anxiety, but it’s over within 30 seconds.
Also, I enjoyed reading about people teaching their children to sit still – great comments & suggestions – I really need to start working with my son on that – he’s never still unless he’s strapped in something! 🙂
Thank you so much for replying. My question, though, is this… how does one define disruptive? Everyone has a different definition.
For our specific situation, our church pastor and the leadership team graciously allowed me to bring a play quilt to worship service every week for our first six months home. We sat in the back of the congregation (there was no cry room) and laid down the quilt with a few quiet toys for my daughter to play with. Our pastor encouraged me to do so, but I know that he caught flack from others… one family even left the church because of it. They felt it was inappropriate. Our pastor responded by saying that keeping someone from worshiping was more inappropriate.
Did I remove my daughter if she became too noisy? Absolutely. But if she played quietly or cuddled with me, then she remained in the service, as did I.
I am sure that our presence in the service did distract others, even those who did not complain, but it was such a blessing to me to be extended this grace.
You’re pretty much spot on with your post.
Leave a little space for training as suggested by Erin.
Also a little room so that kids don’t think that they are always entitled to have something geared especially for them.
As for the young mother, sounds like she needs a wiser (older?) mother to mentor her.
Ok – I’m gonna be majorly off topic for a moment – but after reading the title of this post, I thought it would be about when children disregard a closed bedroom door and walk in on an “adult event”! *snort*
Anyway, I’ve been all over the map with this one – I’m for nursery and children’s church but we often arrive at church to find neither operating due to someone not showing up so I either take my two preschoolers into adult church or turn around and go home. To be honest, preparing for both possibilities each Sunday morning gets old.
And, I’m all for kids learning to sit respectfully for an age-appropriate amount of time but as someone who’s had to attended church alone the last few months (while DaHubby’s overwhelmed with 5 summer classes worth of homework while working 40 hrs/week) sometimes it is just easier to stay home…or go to a church that we are not member just because they HAVE child care/children’s church and I can actually *hear* the sermon.
It’s something we deal with daily and learning as we go. We try to be considerate to those around us and have been told our kids aren’t causing a fuss and that they’re generally well-behaved but that doesn’t mean they’re not bothering someone. Plus, we’ve received our fair share of dirty looks, rolled eyes, clicked teeth, and over-expressive sighs at church and restaurants.
V e r o n i c a…THIS isn't nearly the Jesus-stick beating I was shakin' in my shoes over! (w h e w…!)
Have you been wondering when I'd daggum get to replying again??? I haven't had a "good" block of time to do so, so I didn't want to start and stop again :).
Ugh…I'm so sorry you actually had to leave because of the dairy issue; at our old church where I was nursery director, when kids came in we had a bright, colorful sticker we put on the backs of little ones w/allergies to alert EVERYONE of the potential problems; it's a shame that director didn't understand the repercussions (in some cases, LIFE THREATENING) to carelessness :(.
You know…it was difficult to figure out how to express my title question; "adult only" was my best attempt to communicate variety of setting.
Your comment made me smile at the end :). And, yes ma'am, I DO think you're lucky to some degree! I'm thinkin' you were "training" lots more than you realized, just by your normal interaction with your kids (based on how they "knew" how to behave). You're talking about a different kind of "exception" altogether. It's sad if a child's mere presence causes a person to act the way you described :(.
BING BING BING!!! YOU'RE A WINNER!!! I've commented to a few friends I am SHOCKED no one has yet mentioned that scripture. If there was a prize, you'd be cashin' in right now ;).
Ahhh, GLAD you came out of the woodwork ;). I think we're probably talkin' abut a FEW categories (the more I read the comments). I love how you brought out the point about expecting children to behave like miniature adults; that was never my goal and I hope it doesn't come across that way :). The point you made about participating is well-heeded…training them to be passive, indifferent or to ignore, is not a good thing; helping them understand how they can engage and become of a worshipping Body is a very good thing. Thank you!
I can't close the italics! I've looked, but couldn't figure out how to edit the tag!! lol
I didn't mention the Ezzos for a reason; I didn't want this to be a post about them, realizing fully they've come under attack. I also never took Babywise, but heard plenty from its detractors. The class we took was "Growing Kids God's Way", and while I didn't subscribe to every notion suggested, I gleaned those things that I could reconcile in my mind–with God's word and how I understood it–and ignored those things that didn't seem to fit.
I agree with this for the most part; there are some kids who have legitimate issues they’re working through (thinking of Tonggu Momma especially right now) but it’s GOOD advice, Emily. I found this to be true, too, in most situations; it only extended the time it took to calm. It’s kind of like ripping off a band-aid FAST instead of slowly peeling it off, huh?
I wonder what WOULD happen if I tackled that one; a) I’m no child care expert, but b) I have pretty strong opinions on it….!
That’s a basic tenet I live by; and I **used** to think it was a no-brainer. Experience has told me otherwise…:)
I giggled at your “behind-closed-doors” comment. Gutter? Nooo! Rowwwrr! Yes ma’am ;).
That’s just practical, and thankfully, only lasts a season :). We didn’t have family in town, so had to pay sitters if we went somewhere. Fortunately, we found some teenager girls who ended up becoming an extended part of our family :).
You’ve got an arrangement which is a great compromise. Unfortunately, everyone isn’t that lucky…so glad you are!! 🙂
This is such a thought provoking post! It reminds me a little bit of a conversation I recently had with a friend who was sharing a pet peeve about moms who breastfeed out in public even when there is a perfectly good nursing room available.
“Aren’t you making mountains out of a molehill?”, I wondered. Why do we care so much about what others are doing and focus on what they could do differently so that we are comfortable?
Our church has a nursery, and I don’t really use it except as a nursing room.
I want my daughter to grow up knowing the joy of being in the service. To know how to worship and show respect in a holy place. Someday maybe part of that learning will be able to take place in the nursery or Sunday School. But I don’t want her to be tidied away because she is a child. I don’t want it to be acceptable for her to misbehave “because she is a child”, as if she is somehow incapable of behaving. Our church has a “noisy” side, where the children run completely wild. They play video games on their handheld devices, talk to each other about their webkidz (?), eat cheerios, slices of ham, cookies and other snacks and generally pay no attention at all to their surroundings.
I don’t think they are learning anything about God. I don’t think they are learning anything about the value of corporate worship and Christian community. I already know that I have different expectations for my daughter.
I expressed this rather timidly once, citing my experience at an Old Order Mennonite wedding we went to for a relative. We were astonished by the transformation of the young hooligan distant cousins – although the benches were hard and the service was three hours long, the children all sat still. No fidgetting, whispering or eating. My friend dismissed stating that probably “the behaviour was whipped into them”. Maybe in some cases, but certainly not all. It was a cultural expectation and certainly something that had been trained into them from the earliest ages.
I think it is sad that so many parents seem frightened of discipline, because “kids will be kids”. On the other hand, I’m not called to judge or condemn the parenting choices of others. I don’t want to practise a boundary-oriented approach to life, adopting external changes to show that I’m a Christian instead of letting Jesus transform me (see “The life you always wanted” by John Ortberg)
I totally agree with you. Our church has nursery up to age 3, then Children’s Church for half of the worship service (covering the “boring” sermon, and the “long” prayer, lol) from age 3 to grade 3.
By allowing children to attend 1/2 the service, it’s a training in stages. First you learn to sit for 1/2 an hour, then you learn to sit for another. And the first half is the more “noise and disturbance tolerant” portion….hymns, announcements etc. I love how it is set up as a gradual thing.
On the other hand, the church I grew up in is a small, very rural church, without the benefits of the sound-insulating wings etc. of a larger modern church building. We still attend from time to time, and there is one family who has joined since my childhood that simply does not make any effort at ALL to constrain/train their children! And to be perfectly honest, I know many people who have “tried” the church, never to return, b/c of this couples’ children! Their youngest literally crawls all over the pews, under and over….runs up and down the aisles, yells out whenever he wishes, etc., etc., whilst his parents sit taking notes of the sermon that no one else can pay attention to!
It makes me cringe just thinking of it! (not ironically, they are also home-schooling parents of the type that give home-schoolers a very bad reputation!)
As far as invitation-only events, if your name is not on the envelope, you are NOT invited! Nursing infants excepted. Period.
I fail to see why this ever even needs discussion. Yet I know it does, ad nauseum. At some point, I pray, this pendulum of “my needs are more important than the celebrant’s wishes or budget” will swing back the way traditional and basic manners demand. Christian or not.
As a total aside, I say to my children: “Do I need to take you outside? If I do, you will NOT enjoy it!” I have received more kudos than jeers from people who have overheard me, so I do think we are the majority…perhaps we need to find a way to gently guide the minority a little more persuasively?